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From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Aug 5 05:48:34 2008
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From: Larry Bassham
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Subject: Re: Hash StateQuestion
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References: <20080707190433.A31C21D65@victory.concentric.com> <962B7847-B94E-4A48-B41F-CCD8ECCE4A63@nist.gov> <20080728014423.992F14EDE@bellona.concentric.com> <5c8fcb9c0807280654g7cd9db50v6ec80848a3197e1a@mail.gmail.com> <5BBAB160-BF75-4D4B-9BA4-55DC7185B2C6@cryptolib.com> <51590d340807281806v1cf6fb31g6199c47809a5865b@mail.gmail.com> <020BDA03-8635-4255-B3D2-F597549DB49E@cryptolib.com> <001301c8f6a8$2b5f8cc0$821ea640$@org>
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Since its state never changes, I would say no.
Larry B.
On Aug 4, 2008, at 11:06 PM, John Washburn wrote:
>
> My algorithm contains a fixed (invariant regardless of message or hash
> value) lookup table as part of compression function.
>
> Is this lookup table to be considered part of the Hash State which is
> encoded in the C struct as part of the reference implementation and
> thus
> included in the definition of the struct?
>
>
>
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Aug 4 21:16:05 2008
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Subject: Hash StateQuestion
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My algorithm contains a fixed (invariant regardless of message or hash
value) lookup table as part of compression function.
Is this lookup table to be considered part of the Hash State which is
encoded in the C struct as part of the reference implementation and thus
included in the definition of the struct?
From hash-forum@nist.gov Sun Jul 27 19:59:41 2008
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From: Colin B
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Subject: Time Trouble
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Has anyone figured out how to do the timing measurements for section 2.B.2? The time() and clock() routines in Visual Studio 2005/windows give values in milliseconds and only change every ten milliseconds - that's also elapsed time and not process time. The best I've been able to do is count how many hashes can be done in 10ms using 1000 bits and 1000 bytes of random data. This has to be repeated several times because the system will sometimes go and do other things for a while, reducing the count.
Regards, Colin.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Sun Jul 27 20:32:06 2008
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From: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Sean_O=92Neil?=
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On 28 Jul 2008, at 03:50, Colin B wrote:
> Has anyone figured out how to do the timing measurements for
> section 2.B.2? The time() and clock() routines in Visual Studio
> 2005/windows give values in milliseconds and only change every ten
> milliseconds - that's also elapsed time and not process time. The
> best I've been able to do is count how many hashes can be done in
> 10ms using 1000 bits and 1000 bytes of random data. This has to be
> repeated several times because the system will sometimes go and do
> other things for a while, reducing the count.
You are making a hash function and you've never heard of the clock
counter???
Does RDTSC ring a bell?
Look it up.
unsigned long long _rdtsc(void) {__asm rdtsc}
AKA
unsigned __int64 _rdtsc(void) {__asm _emit 0x0F __asm _emit 0x31}
/me is scratching his head
Best regards,
Sean O'Neil
http://www.enrupt.com/ - Raising the bar.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 05:11:57 2008
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--_000_E1BEC7FFF6C889489E8C09F722F185CD17C300DAC0SJCXCH07hifnc_
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Sorry for the earlier empty email. I pushed send by mistake while starting =
my message.
Yes, it's a real shame that C doesn't have a standard way to do this. Below=
is some code that you are free to copy if you wish. I have used variants o=
f this function for years, all the way back to AES days, and the code is en=
tirely mine, so I hereby release it to the public domain. If you keep readi=
ng below, I also give some concrete suggestions on how to use it.
This code works on x86 family CPUs (32-big and 64-bit), under MSVC, gcc, an=
d BorlandC, including older compiler versions where the __rdtsc() function =
is not defined. It also checks for ANSI compiles (i.e., -ansi using gcc, /Z=
a using MSVC, and -A using Borland) and disables the call, to avoid compile=
-time warnings/errors. The function HiResTime() currently returns only 32 b=
its, mostly for historical reasons. However, that's enough to do most timin=
g measurements, and you could easily enhance it to return 64 bits if desire=
d. I normally compile with multiple compilers -- e.g., three versions of MS=
VC (v4.2, v6.0 and v9.0), at least two versions of gcc, plus Borland -- and=
take performance measurements on all of them.
/************** Timing routine (for performance measurements) ***********/
/* unfortunately, this is generally assembly code and not very portable */
#if defined(_M_IX86) || defined(__i386) || defined(_i386) || defined(__i386=
__) || defined(i386) || \
defined(_X86_) || defined(__x86_64__) || defined(_M_X64) || defined(_=
_x86_64)
#define _Is_X86_ 1
#endif
#if defined(_Is_X86_) && (!defined(__STRICT_ANSI__)) && (defined(__GNUC__)=
|| !defined(__STDC__)) && \
(defined(__BORLANDC__) || defined(_MSC_VER) || defined(__MINGW_H) || de=
fined(__GNUC__))
#define HI_RES_CLK_OK 1 /* it's ok to use RDTSC opcode */
#if defined(_MSC_VER) && defined(_M_X64)
#include
#pragma intrinsic(__rdtsc) /* use MSVC rdtsc call where defined */
#endif
#endif
uint_32t HiResTime(void) /* return the current value of time stam=
p counter */
{
#if defined(HI_RES_CLK_OK)
uint_32t x[2];
#if defined(__BORLANDC__)
#define COMPILER_ID "BCC"
__emit__(0x0F,0x31); /* RDTSC instruction */
_asm { mov x[0],eax };
#elif defined(_MSC_VER)
#define COMPILER_ID "MSC"
#if defined(_MSC_VER) && defined(_M_X64)
x[0] =3D (uint_32t) __rdtsc();
#else
_asm { _emit 0fh }; _asm { _emit 031h };
_asm { mov x[0],eax };
#endif
#elif defined(__MINGW_H) || defined(__GNUC__)
#define COMPILER_ID "GCC"
asm volatile("rdtsc" : "=3Da"(x[0]), "=3Dd"(x[1]));
#else
#error "HI_RES_CLK_OK -- but no assembler code for this platform (?)"
#endif
return x[0];
#else
/* avoid annoying MSVC 9.0 compiler warning #4720 in ANSI mode! */
#if (!defined(_MSC_VER)) || (!defined(__STDC__)) || (_MSC_VER < 1300)
FatalError("No support for RDTSC on this CPU platform\n");
#endif
return 0;
#endif /* defined(HI_RES_CLK_OK) */
}
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For example, what I normally do in my timing routines is call this routine =
a few times (say 10) and take the minimum difference, to calibrate the over=
head, which is usually 50-100 clocks, depending on the compiler. Here's an =
example:
#define TIMER_SAMPLE_CNT (10)
uint_32t dtMin =3D 0xFFFFFFFF; /* big number to start */
uint_32t t0,t1,i;
for (i=3D0;i < TIMER_SAMPLE_CNT;i++) /* calibrate the overhead for mea=
suring time */
{
t0 =3D HiResTime();
t1 =3D HiResTime();
if (dtMin > t1-t0) /* keep only the minimum time */
dtMin =3D t1-t0;
}
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Then I call the code to be measured similarly, as follows:
uint_32t tMin =3D 0xFFFFFFFF; /* big number to start */
for (i=3D0;i < TIMER_SAMPLE_CNT;i++) /* calibrate the overhead for mea=
suring time */
{
t0 =3D HiResTime();
RoutineToBeTimed(); /* do the work */
t1 =3D HiResTime();
if (tMin > t1-t0 - dtMin) /* keep only the minimum time */
tMin =3D t1-t0 - dtMin;
}
/* now tMin =3D # clocks required for running RoutineToBeTimed() */
If possible, you should implement the routine of interest so that it comple=
tes in less than, say, 100K clocks. That way, in most cases, there will be =
no OS overhead or task switches. Running it several times helps get rid of =
such overhead, as occasionally you'll see a huge spike in the time differen=
ce due to such a time slice change. If you think about it, the minimum valu=
e is almost always what you want, but sometimes I actually give both min an=
d median times; although those rarely differ by much, it's often comforting=
to make sure.
Note that, in VM environments, the rdtsc instruction usually itself gets em=
ulated and thus dtMin is thousands of clocks. In those cases, unfortunately=
, the results are usually not very repeatable. I don't know of any way arou=
nd this problem, so I suggest running your timing measurements in a non-VM =
window.
I hope this is helpful. I've taken such measurements a lot over the years o=
n many different types of algorithms, and this method has proven to be very=
reliable. It is particularly nice because the times involved can be quite =
short, down to less than 100 clocks -- you don't have to iterate for long p=
eriods of time to get a valid measurement.
Doug Whiting
Chief Scientist, Hifn
________________________________________
From: hash-forum@nist.gov [hash-forum@nist.gov] On Behalf Of Colin B [mesad=
esign@colinb.cts.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Time Trouble
Has anyone figured out how to do the timing measurements for section 2.B.2?=
The time() and clock() routines in Visual Studio 2005/windows give values =
in milliseconds and only change every ten milliseconds - that's also elapse=
d time and not process time. The best I've been able to do is count how man=
y hashes can be done in 10ms using 1000 bits and 1000 bytes of random data.=
This has to be repeated several times because the system will sometimes go=
and do other things for a while, reducing the count.
Regards, Colin.
________________________________
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may=
contain confidential and privileged information which is protected from di=
sclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution by any m=
eans is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact t=
he sender by reply email or at (408) 399-3500 and destroy all copies of the=
original message.
--_000_E1BEC7FFF6C889489E8C09F722F185CD17C300DAC0SJCXCH07hifnc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sorry for the earlier empty email. I pushed send by=
mistake while starting my message.
Yes, it's a real shame that C doesn't have a standa=
rd way to do this. Below is some code that you are free to copy if you wish=
I have used variants of this function for years, all the way back to AES =
days, and the code is entirely mine,
so I hereby release it to the public domain. If you keep reading belo=
w, I also give some concrete suggestions on how to use it.
This code works on x86 family CPUs (32-big and=
64-bit), under MSVC, gcc, and BorlandC, including older compiler versions =
where the __rdtsc() function is not defined. It also checks for ANSI compil=
es (i.e., -ansi using gcc, /Za using MSVC,
and -A using Borland) and disables the call, to avoid compile-time warning=
s/errors. The function HiResTime() currently returns only 32 bits, mostly f=
or historical reasons. However, that's enough to do most timing measurement=
s, and you could easily enhance
it to return 64 bits if desired. I normally compile with multiple compiler=
s -- e.g., three versions of MSVC (v4.2, v6.0 and v9.0), at least two =
versions of gcc, plus Borland -- and take performance measurements on =
all of them.
/************** Timing routine (for performance measurements) **********=
*/
/* unfortunately, this is generally assembly code and not very portable */<=
br>
#if defined(_M_IX86) || defined(__i386) || defined(_i386) || defined(__i386=
__) || defined(i386) || \
defined(_X86_) || defined(__x86_64__) || def=
ined(_M_X64) || defined(__x86_64)
#define _Is_X86_ 1
#endif
#if defined(_Is_X86_) && (!defined(__STRICT_ANSI__)) &&am=
p; (defined(__GNUC__) || !defined(__STDC__)) && \
(defined(__BORLANDC__) || defined(_MSC_VER) || defined(_=
_MINGW_H) || defined(__GNUC__))
#define HI_RES_CLK_OK 1&nbs=
p; /* it's ok to use RDTSC =
opcode */
#if defined(_MSC_VER) && defined(_M_X64)
#include <intrin.h>
#pragma intrinsic(__rdtsc) &=
nbsp;/* use MSVC rdtsc call where defined */
#endif
#endif
uint_32t HiResTime(void) =
/* return the current value of time stamp counter */=
{
#if defined(HI_RES_CLK_OK)
uint_32t x[2];
#if defined(__BORLANDC__)
#define COMPILER_ID "BCC"
__emit__(0x0F,0x31); =
/* RDTSC instruction */
_asm { mov x[0],eax };
#elif defined(_MSC_VER)
#define COMPILER_ID "MSC"
#if defined(_MSC_VER) && defined(_M_X64)
x[0] =3D (uint_32t) __rdtsc();
#else
_asm { _emit 0fh }; _asm { _emit 031h };
_asm { mov x[0],eax };
#endif
#elif defined(__MINGW_H) || defined(__GNUC__)
#define COMPILER_ID "GCC"
asm volatile("rdtsc" : "=3Da"(x[0]),=
"=3Dd"(x[1]));
#else
#error "HI_RES_CLK_OK -- but no assembler code for this platform=
(?)"
#endif
return x[0];
#else
/* avoid annoying MSVC 9.0 compiler warning #4720 in ANS=
I mode! */
#if (!defined(_MSC_VER)) || (!defined(__STDC__)) || (_MSC_VER < 1300)
FatalError("No support for RDTSC on this CPU platfo=
rm\n");
#endif
return 0;
#endif /* defined(HI_RES_CLK_OK) */
}
+++++++++++=
;+++++++++++++++=
;+++++++++++++++=
;++++++++++++++
For example, what I normally do in my timing routin=
es is call this routine a few times (say 10) and take the minimum differenc=
e, to calibrate the overhead, which is usually 50-100 clocks, depending on =
the compiler. Here's an example:
#define TIMER_SAMPLE_CNT (10)
uint_32t dtMin =3D 0xFFFFF=
FFF; /* big number to start */
uint_32t t0,t1,i;=
p>
for (i=3D0;i < TIMER_SAMPLE_CNT;i++) =
/* calibrate the overhead for measuring time */
{
t0 =3D HiResTime();
t1 =3D HiResTime();
if (dtMin > t1-t0)  =
; /* keep=
only the minimum time */
dtMin =
=3D t1-t0;
}
++++++++++&=
#43;++++++++++++++&=
#43;++++++++++++++&=
#43;++++++++++++++<=
/font>
Then I call the code to be measured similarly, as f=
ollows:
uint_32t tMin =3D 0xF=
FFFFFFF; /* big number to s=
tart */
for (i=3D0;i < TIMER_SA=
MPLE_CNT;i++) /* calibrate the overhead for measuring time */=
{
t0 =3D HiResTime();
=
RoutineToBeTimed(); &n=
bsp; /* do the work */
t1 =3D HiResTime();
if (tMin > t1-t0 - dtMin)&nbs=
p; /* keep only the minimum time */
tMin =3D=
t1-t0 - dtMin;
}
/* now tMin =3D # clo=
cks required for running RoutineToBeTimed() */
If possible, you should implement the routine of in=
terest so that it completes in less than, say, 100K clocks. That way, in mo=
st cases, there will be no OS overhead or task switches. Running it several=
times helps get rid of such overhead,
as occasionally you'll see a huge spike in the time difference du=
e to such a time slice change. If you think about it, the minimum value is =
almost always what you want, but sometimes I actually give both min and med=
ian times; although those rarely
differ by much, it's often comforting to make sure.
Note that, in VM environments, the rdtsc instructio=
n usually itself gets emulated and thus dtMin is thousands of clocks. =
In those cases, unfortunately, the results are usually not very repeat=
able. I don't know of any way around this problem,
so I suggest running your timing measurements in a non-VM window.=
p>
I hope this is helpful. I've taken such measurement=
s a lot over the years on many different types of algorithms, and this meth=
od has proven to be very reliable. It is particularly nice because the time=
s involved can be quite short, down
to less than 100 clocks -- you don't have to iterate for long periods of t=
ime to get a valid measurement.
Doug Whiting
Chief Scientist, Hifn
________________________________________
From: hash-forum@nist.gov [hash-forum@nist.gov] On Behalf Of Colin B [mesad=
esign@colinb.cts.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Time Trouble
Has anyone figured out how to do the timing measurements for section 2.B.2?=
The time() and clock() routines in Visual Studio 2005/windows give values =
in milliseconds and only change every ten milliseconds - that's also elapse=
d time and not process time. The
best I've been able to do is count how many hashes can be done in 10ms usi=
ng 1000 bits and 1000 bytes of random data. This has to be repeated several=
times because the system will sometimes go and do other things for a while=
, reducing the count.
Regards, Colin.
This email message is for =
the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and =
privileged information which is protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized=
review, use, disclosure or distribution
by any means is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please =
contact the sender by reply email or at (408) 399-3500 and destroy all copi=
es of the original message.
--_000_E1BEC7FFF6C889489E8C09F722F185CD17C300DAC0SJCXCH07hifnc_--
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A bit of advice from my experience trying to test the performance of functions:
Unfortunately, rdtsc only works on older processors with only one core
(I have read that some CPUs with multiple cores will work but I have
never used one). The main issue is that the cores typically end up
with different counter values because one core may sleep for a bit
while the other keeps running. Meanwhile, your code can bounce between
cores so different readings of the counter.
Windows provides OS support to help ameliorate this with
QueryPerformanceCounter() which is supposed to work over multiple
cores but I have found this to be inaccurate as well (sometimes
returning values that say the function finishes before it started).
If you must run on a multitasking operating system that knows about
multiple cores, the best I have been able to come up with is to run
many trials (20-1000, you will need more trials for longer running
functions), and print out or plot out the timing results. You will see
clusters of results depending on the number of cores you have. For
example, if you have 2 cores, you will see three clusters - one for
when the two counter queries occurred on the same core, one for the
early core --> late core bounce, and one for the late core --> early
core bounce. Depending on how long your test runs, these clusters will
smear because other processes took a time slice and you will need more
trials to be sure you get a clean run with no OS interference. The
values may also smear because the first test runs on a cold cache. The
fastest time in the middle cluster is the closest thing to a good
timing value you can get. I have verified this by running the same
simple test on Windows and FreeDOS on a dual core AMD processor. The
clusters may not be well defined enough to clearly separate them. In
this case just wait a bit and try again and hope the CPU counters have
become more separate.
If somebody knows a way to get valid timing results while running in a
virtual machine, I'd love to hear it.
I now have a quad core processor as my main machine but, luckily, I
have not actually had to do timing tests on it.
-Michael Heyman
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 08:30:09 2008
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----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "Multiple recipients of list"
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Time Trouble
>
> A bit of advice from my experience trying to test the performance of
> functions:
>
> Unfortunately, rdtsc only works on older processors with only one core
> (I have read that some CPUs with multiple cores will work but I have
> never used one). The main issue is that the cores typically end up
> with different counter values because one core may sleep for a bit
> while the other keeps running. Meanwhile, your code can bounce between
> cores so different readings of the counter.
>
> Windows provides OS support to help ameliorate this with
> QueryPerformanceCounter() which is supposed to work over multiple
> cores but I have found this to be inaccurate as well (sometimes
> returning values that say the function finishes before it started).
I have found the following code at the start of a timing routine to be
reliable for timing on multiple core machines running Windows
It works by forcing the OS to run the process only on the core that it
starts on.
------------------------------------------------------
// we need to constrain the process to one core in order to
// obtain meaningful timing data
HANDLE ph;
DWORD_PTR afp;
DWORD_PTR afs;
ph = GetCurrentProcess();
if(GetProcessAffinityMask(ph, &afp, &afs))
{
afp &= (1 << GetCurrentProcessorNumber());
if(!SetProcessAffinityMask(ph, afp))
{
printf("Couldn't set Process Affinity Mask\n\n"); return -1;
}
}
else
{
printf("Couldn't get Process Affinity Mask\n\n"); return -1;
}
------------------------------------------------------
Brian Gladman
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 08:30:11 2008
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Agreed, but if your test is quick enough (say < 100K clks, which is enough for most reasonable hash function parameters), no task switch will occur in general. That's why my code uses only the min value (and the median as a sanity check). The shorter the test, the more reliable the result.
________________________________________
From: hash-forum@nist.gov [hash-forum@nist.gov] On Behalf Of mheyman@gmail.com [mheyman@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 7:01 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Time Trouble
A bit of advice from my experience trying to test the performance of functions:
Unfortunately, rdtsc only works on older processors with only one core
(I have read that some CPUs with multiple cores will work but I have
never used one). The main issue is that the cores typically end up
with different counter values because one core may sleep for a bit
while the other keeps running. Meanwhile, your code can bounce between
cores so different readings of the counter.
Windows provides OS support to help ameliorate this with
QueryPerformanceCounter() which is supposed to work over multiple
cores but I have found this to be inaccurate as well (sometimes
returning values that say the function finishes before it started).
If you must run on a multitasking operating system that knows about
multiple cores, the best I have been able to come up with is to run
many trials (20-1000, you will need more trials for longer running
functions), and print out or plot out the timing results. You will see
clusters of results depending on the number of cores you have. For
example, if you have 2 cores, you will see three clusters - one for
when the two counter queries occurred on the same core, one for the
early core --> late core bounce, and one for the late core --> early
core bounce. Depending on how long your test runs, these clusters will
smear because other processes took a time slice and you will need more
trials to be sure you get a clean run with no OS interference. The
values may also smear because the first test runs on a cold cache. The
fastest time in the middle cluster is the closest thing to a good
timing value you can get. I have verified this by running the same
simple test on Windows and FreeDOS on a dual core AMD processor. The
clusters may not be well defined enough to clearly separate them. In
this case just wait a bit and try again and hope the CPU counters have
become more separate.
If somebody knows a way to get valid timing results while running in a
virtual machine, I'd love to hear it.
I now have a quad core processor as my main machine but, luckily, I
have not actually had to do timing tests on it.
-Michael Heyman
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information which is protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution by any means is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or at (408) 399-3500 and destroy all copies of the original message.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 08:57:48 2008
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On Jul 28, 2008, at 8:01 AM, mheyman@gmail.com wrote:
> Windows provides OS support to help ameliorate this with
> QueryPerformanceCounter() which is supposed to work over multiple
> cores but I have found this to be inaccurate as well (sometimes
> returning values that say the function finishes before it started).
This is because it returns a 32-bit value (unsigned) and wraps
around. As long as the only thing you do with it is subtract the
latter from the earlier, and as long as the operation you are
measuring takes less than 2^32 counts, then you won't get the wrong
answer due to the wrap-around.
However, you can get the wrong answer due to slew between CPUs, which
is apparently dependent on your BIOS and HAL:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644904(VS.85).aspx
DJB's infrastructure for timing stream ciphers is very good because
it exposes a lot of issues which are typically overlooked in
benchmarks, and which can be the most important performance issues in
some use cases. Please see the graphs and source code here:
http://cr.yp.to/streamciphers/timings.html
(DJB's timing system presumably doesn't work on Windows, but this
should not deter people from using it. Just boot an Ubuntu live cd
or something.)
Regards,
Zooko
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 13:22:56 2008
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I wanted to let everyone on the hash-forum list know that there is a
new version of the NIST Statistical Test Suite (version 2.0)
available. The changes are basically to simplify the package a bit.
There is one version that has been tested to function correctly on
Windows XP, Mac OS X, and Ubuntu Linux (all on x86 processors). The
Windows specific GUI has been removed.
The tests are all the same as the previous version.
The will be a revision of the documentation to follow, but the
existing document will provide accurate descriptions of the tests.
Larry B.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 14:04:54 2008
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How do you detect the presence of Vista at run-time, so that my code can be tested on XP systems as well? I can't find it in the documentation, so I'm hoping you just know this off the top of your head.
Thanks!
Doug
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hash-forum@nist.gov [mailto:hash-forum@nist.gov] On Behalf Of
> Brian Gladman
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 8:27 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: Time Trouble
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: "Multiple recipients of list"
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Time Trouble
>
>
> >
> > A bit of advice from my experience trying to test the performance of
> > functions:
> >
> > Unfortunately, rdtsc only works on older processors with only one
> core
> > (I have read that some CPUs with multiple cores will work but I have
> > never used one). The main issue is that the cores typically end up
> > with different counter values because one core may sleep for a bit
> > while the other keeps running. Meanwhile, your code can bounce
> between
> > cores so different readings of the counter.
> >
> > Windows provides OS support to help ameliorate this with
> > QueryPerformanceCounter() which is supposed to work over multiple
> > cores but I have found this to be inaccurate as well (sometimes
> > returning values that say the function finishes before it started).
>
> I have found the following code at the start of a timing routine to be
> reliable for timing on multiple core machines running Windows
>
> It works by forcing the OS to run the process only on the core that it
> starts on.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> // we need to constrain the process to one core in order to
> // obtain meaningful timing data
> HANDLE ph;
> DWORD_PTR afp;
> DWORD_PTR afs;
> ph = GetCurrentProcess();
> if(GetProcessAffinityMask(ph, &afp, &afs))
> {
> afp &= (1 << GetCurrentProcessorNumber());
> if(!SetProcessAffinityMask(ph, afp))
> {
> printf("Couldn't set Process Affinity Mask\n\n"); return -
> 1;
> }
> }
> else
> {
> printf("Couldn't get Process Affinity Mask\n\n"); return -1;
> }
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Brian Gladman
>
>
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information which is protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution by any means is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or at (408) 399-3500 and destroy all copies of the original message.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 14:18:45 2008
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> If somebody knows a way to get valid timing results while running in a
> virtual machine, I'd love to hear it.
RDTSC emulation in VMWare can be disabled by setting
monitor_control.virtual_rdtsc = false in the vmx file and Parallels
Desktop does not emulate it at all. I hope it helps.
Best regards,
Sean O'Neil
http://www.enrupt.com/ - Raising the bar.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Mon Jul 28 18:19:33 2008
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Just a quick note about RDTSC on modern multicore processors - You need to
be aware that many systems have variable clocks - notebooks in particular
will typically slow the clock when the system is idle to save power. Some
systems with several cores can halt or slow cores independantly.
If your calibration is done before the chipset detects the CPU demand and
speeds up, your test results may be completely incorrect. Also, after a
task switch on a multicore system, your thread may wake up on a different
processor, with a different performance counter, which you cannot assume is
in sync with the first one.
Windows QueryPerformanceCounter is supposed to deal with some of these
issues, but I'm not sure how reliable it is either.
The suggestion in the thread above, to measure short tests, under 10 ms (min
Windows task switch) is good advice. Do this many times, toss out anomolous
high times (probably due to task switch) and average.
If you are just tuning an algorithm for speed, consider using VTune (works
with Intel cpus, costs money) or Code Analyst (AMD, free).
-Geoff Park
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Sean O'Neil wrote:
>
> If somebody knows a way to get valid timing results while running in a
>> virtual machine, I'd love to hear it.
>>
>
> RDTSC emulation in VMWare can be disabled by setting
> monitor_control.virtual_rdtsc = false in the vmx file and Parallels Desktop
> does not emulate it at all. I hope it helps.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Sean O'Neil
> http://www.enrupt.com/ - Raising the bar.
>
>
>
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Just a quick note about RDTSC on modern multicore processors - You need to be aware that many systems have variable clocks - notebooks in particular will typically slow the clock when the system is idle to save power. Some systems with several cores can halt or slow cores independantly.
If your calibration is done before the chipset detects the CPU demand and speeds up, your test results may be completely incorrect. Also, after a task switch on a multicore system, your thread may wake up on a different processor, with a different performance counter, which you cannot assume is in sync with the first one.
Windows QueryPerformanceCounter is supposed to deal with some of these issues, but I'm not sure how reliable it is either.
The suggestion in the thread above, to measure short tests, under 10 ms (min Windows task switch) is good advice. Do this many times, toss out anomolous high times (probably due to task switch) and average.
If you are just tuning an algorithm for speed, consider using VTune (works with Intel cpus, costs money) or Code Analyst (AMD, free).
-Geoff Park
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Sean O'Neil
<sean@cryptolib.com> wrote:
If somebody knows a way to get valid timing results while running in a
virtual machine, I'd love to hear it.
RDTSC emulation in VMWare can be disabled by setting monitor_control.virtual_rdtsc = false in the vmx file and Parallels Desktop does not emulate it at all. I hope it helps.
------=_Part_24100_15966533.1217293619562--
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Jul 29 06:12:32 2008
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The web page for the RNG Statistical Test Suite is below.
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/rng/index.html
Larry B.
On Jul 29, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Karan, Cem (Civ, ARL/CISD) wrote:
> Can you give us a link?
>
> Thanks,
> Cem Karan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hash-forum@nist.gov [mailto:hash-forum@nist.gov] On Behalf Of
> Larry Bassham
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:18 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: NIST Statistical Test Suite
>
>
>
> I wanted to let everyone on the hash-forum list know that there is
> a new version of the NIST Statistical Test Suite (version 2.0)
> available. The changes are basically to simplify the package a bit.
> There is one version that has been tested to function correctly on
> Windows XP, Mac OS X, and Ubuntu Linux (all on x86 processors).
> The Windows specific GUI has been removed.
> The tests are all the same as the previous version.
>
> The will be a revision of the documentation to follow, but the
> existing document will provide accurate descriptions of the tests.
>
> Larry B.
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Jul 29 06:26:52 2008
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On 28 Jul 2008, at 17:27, Doug Whiting wrote:
> Agreed, but if your test is quick enough (say < 100K clks, which is
> enough for most reasonable hash function parameters), no task
> switch will occur in general. That's why my code uses only the min
> value (and the median as a sanity check). The shorter the test, the
> more reliable the result.
From my own experience measuring speed of all kinds of functions
since RDTSC was first added to the Intel processors, the minimal
value is the most correct one and the easiest one to measure. It is
usually returned either 100% or 3/4 or the lowest i've seen 2/3 of
the time, with the remaining 1/3 or 1/4 being the next one or few up
[every RDTSC value in Core 2 Duo is a multiple of 13 clock cycles],
with a very small percentage of random fluctuations, IRQ interrupts
and task switches that only contribute garbage to the median value [a
good source of entropy though].
The most precise way to measure speed of your function is to count
every sane value returned [easy to do with a small table], throw away
everything below 3% and print out the remaining top 2-3 with their
adjusted frequencies. The minimal value is somehow always on top.
Only the algorithms that use very large tables that do not fit in
cache will have a very nasty distribution of clock cycle values, but
I doubt that we will have a single function of that kind here.
Another side-effect of the modern CPUs to watch out for is the
speed's dependency on the location in memory, especially for all the
inlined functions. It can cause severe biases regardless of their
speeds or the number of iterations.
On 28 Jul 2008, at 14:07, Doug Whiting wrote:
> for (i=0;i < TIMER_SAMPLE_CNT;i++) /* calibrate the overhead
> for measuring time */
> {
> t0 = HiResTime();
EmptyFunctionCall(); // is missing here
> t1 = HiResTime();
> if (dtMin > t1-t0) /* keep only the minimum
> time */
> dtMin = t1-t0;
> }
Best regards,
Sean O'Neil
http://www.enrupt.com/ - Raising the bar.
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Subject: Re: Time Trouble
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References: <20080707190433.A31C21D65@victory.concentric.com> <962B7847-B94E-4A48-B41F-CCD8ECCE4A63@nist.gov> <20080728014423.992F14EDE@bellona.concentric.com> <5c8fcb9c0807280654g7cd9db50v6ec80848a3197e1a@mail.gmail.com> <5BBAB160-BF75-4D4B-9BA4-55DC7185B2C6@cryptolib.com> <51590d340807281806v1cf6fb31g6199c47809a5865b@mail.gmail.com>
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On 29 Jul 2008, at 03:15, geoffrey park wrote:
> Just a quick note about RDTSC on modern multicore processors - You
> need to be aware that many systems have variable clocks - notebooks
> in particular will typically slow the clock when the system is idle
> to save power. Some systems with several cores can halt or slow
> cores independantly.
Faster or slower, it will not affect the measurement.
> If your calibration is done before the chipset detects the CPU
> demand and speeds up, your test results may be completely
> incorrect. Also, after a task switch on a multicore system, your
> thread may wake up on a different processor, with a different
> performance counter, which you cannot assume is in sync with the
> first one.
That is why the sanity check. We only test fast functions with sane
(<100K clocks) execution times. There should be no task switches or
processor switches during their operation, only occasional hardware
interrupts that add a few thousand clock cycles.
> Windows QueryPerformanceCounter is supposed to deal with some of
> these issues, but I'm not sure how reliable it is either.
It is practically useless for our purpose.
I also forgot to mention that it is also essential to measure
processing of random inputs, not the same input many times.
Best regards,
Sean O'Neil
http://www.enrupt.com/ - Raising the bar.
From koc@letters.cs.ucsb.edu Fri Aug 1 01:44:35 2008 +0300
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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:44:35 -0700
From: Benji Dunson
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To: Cetin Kaya Koc
Subject: 290 Fall 08
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Hi Cetin,
Can you please provide me with the title, description and class website
of your 290 in the Fall. I also need to know if the course counts for
Systems, Applications or Foundations for the MS students. I hope all is
well!
Benji
--
Benji Dunson
Undergraduate Advisor
Computer Science
University of California, Santa Barbara
Santa Barbara, CA 93106
(805) 893-4321 ph
(805) 893-8553 fax
benji@cs.ucsb.edu
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Aug 5 19:06:47 2008
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From: "John Washburn"
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Subject: RE: Hash StateQuestion
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References: <20080707190433.A31C21D65@victory.concentric.com> <962B7847-B94E-4A48-B41F-CCD8ECCE4A63@nist.gov> <20080728014423.992F14EDE@bellona.concentric.com> <5c8fcb9c0807280654g7cd9db50v6ec80848a3197e1a@mail.gmail.com> <5BBAB160-BF75-4D4B-9BA4-55DC7185B2C6@cryptolib.com> <51590d340807281806v1cf6fb31g6199c47809a5865b@mail.gmail.com> <020BDA03-8635-4255-B3D2-F597549DB49E@cryptolib.com> <001301c8f6a8$2b5f8cc0$821ea640$@org>
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I thought not, but it is best to make sure.
-----Original Message-----
From: hash-forum@nist.gov [mailto:hash-forum@nist.gov] On Behalf Of Larry
Bassham
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:44 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Hash StateQuestion
Since its state never changes, I would say no.
Larry B.
On Aug 4, 2008, at 11:06 PM, John Washburn wrote:
>
> My algorithm contains a fixed (invariant regardless of message or hash
> value) lookup table as part of compression function.
>
> Is this lookup table to be considered part of the Hash State which is
> encoded in the C struct as part of the reference implementation and
> thus
> included in the definition of the struct?
>
>
>
>
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From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Aug 28 12:11:45 2008
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From: Shu-jen Chang
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Subject: Fwd: Long message attacks and randomized hashing (& NIST Correction)
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--=====================_10472906==_
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FYI - a correction to the security requirements in Section 4.A.ii
Bullet 3. The attached correction will also be posted on our web site at
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/federal_register.html .
Regards,
Shu-jen
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From: "John Kelsey" <john.kelsey@nist.gov>
To: hash-function@nist.gov
Subject: Long message attacks and randomized hashing
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Everyone,
Shoichi Hirose pointed out a minor error in our call for
algorithms,
involving the resistance of (optional) randomized hashing modes to
second-preimage attacks. We ignored the long-message second
preimage
attack in these requirements.
The text should be corrected as follows:
/////
4.A.ii Bullet 3 should have stated:
If a construct is specified for the use of
the candidate
algorithm in an n-bit randomized hashing scheme, the construct
must,
with overwhelming probability, provide n-k bits of security against
the following attack: The attacker chooses a message, M1 of length
at
most 2k bits. The specified construct is then used on M1 with a
randomization value r1 that has been randomly chosen without the
attacker's control after the attacker has supplied M1. Given r1,
the
attacker then attempts to find a second message M2 and
randomization value r2 that yield the same randomized hash value.
Note
that in order to meet this specific security requirement, the
specified randomized hashing construct may place restrictions on
the
length of the randomization value.
/////
I don't expect this change to affect any submissions, since it
slightly relaxes requirements on an optional thing submitters may
do,
decreasing the vulnerability of the optional randomized hashing
construction to an entirely academic attack. (However, I'm a
little
embarrassed to have missed the omission, all things considered.)
Thanks,
--John Kelsey, NIST
--=====================_10472906==_
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--=====================_10472906==_
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From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Aug 28 12:11:51 2008
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Subject: Long message attacks and randomized hashing
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Everyone,
Shoichi Hirose pointed out a minor error in our call for algorithms,
involving the resistance of (optional) randomized hashing modes to
second-preimage attacks. We ignored the long-message second preimage
attack in these requirements.
The text should be corrected as follows:
/////
4.A.ii Bullet 3 should have stated:
If a construct is specified for the use of the candidate
algorithm in an n-bit randomized hashing scheme, the construct must,
with overwhelming probability, provide n-k bits of security against
the following attack: The attacker chooses a message, M1 of length at
most 2k bits. The specified construct is then used on M1 with a
randomization value r1 that has been randomly chosen without the
attacker's control after the attacker has supplied M1. Given r1, the
attacker then attempts to find a second message M2 and randomization
value r2 that yield the same randomized hash value. Note that in order
to meet this specific security requirement, the specified randomized
hashing construct may place restrictions on the length of the
randomization value.
/////
I don't expect this change to affect any submissions, since it
slightly relaxes requirements on an optional thing submitters may do,
decreasing the vulnerability of the optional randomized hashing
construction to an entirely academic attack. (However, I'm a little
embarrassed to have missed the omission, all things considered.)
Thanks,
--John Kelsey, NIST
From hash-forum@nist.gov Sat Aug 30 09:27:19 2008
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From: "Ronald L. Rivest"
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Subject: Re: Long message attacks and randomized hashing
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Hi John --
Shouldn't the revised text say "... M1 of length at most 2**k bits ... "
and not 2k bits ??
Can you explain the reason for the change in specs? It doesn't
seem necessary, unless you explicitly want to encourage the
use of chaining variables that have the same size as the final
hash output -- arguably a poor choice. Or have I misunderstood
something?
Cheers,
Ron Rivest
On 8/28/2008 1:58 PM, John Kelsey wrote:
>
> Everyone,
>
> Shoichi Hirose pointed out a minor error in our call for algorithms,
> involving the resistance of (optional) randomized hashing modes to
> second-preimage attacks. We ignored the long-message second preimage
> attack in these requirements.
>
> The text should be corrected as follows:
>
> /////
>
> 4.A.ii Bullet 3 should have stated:
>
> If a construct is specified for the use of the candidate
> algorithm in an n-bit randomized hashing scheme, the construct must,
> with overwhelming probability, provide n-k bits of security against
> the following attack: The attacker chooses a message, M1 of length at
> most 2k bits. The specified construct is then used on M1 with a
> randomization value r1 that has been randomly chosen without the
> attacker's control after the attacker has supplied M1. Given r1, the
> attacker then attempts to find a second message M2 and randomization
> value r2 that yield the same randomized hash value. Note that in order
> to meet this specific security requirement, the specified randomized
> hashing construct may place restrictions on the length of the
> randomization value.
>
> /////
>
> I don't expect this change to affect any submissions, since it
> slightly relaxes requirements on an optional thing submitters may do,
> decreasing the vulnerability of the optional randomized hashing
> construction to an entirely academic attack. (However, I'm a little
> embarrassed to have missed the omission, all things considered.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> --John Kelsey, NIST
>
>
>
>
--
Ronald L. Rivest
Room 32-G692, Stata Center, MIT, Cambridge MA 02139
Tel 617-253-5880, Email
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Sep 2 11:31:04 2008
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I've been following this forum with interest, although I don't plan to
submit a new hash function.
However, I have recently become involved in an effort to test a file
storage system that involves millions of records, and close to 3
terabytes of data per device, and in my case a total of over 20 TB of
data. I'm looking for errors that might occur at a BER of 10^-9 to
10^-12.
Unfortunately, I don't have or know of a file synchronization utility
that is really suitable for the intended purpose.
What I would like to find is a utility that will hash all of the files
in a folder, and store that hash somewhere (preferably somewhere
associated with the file itself but without modifying the file, perhaps
in an NTFS Alternate Data Stream for Vista/XP, or a resource fork on the
Mac's HFS+ file system.
After completing the first pass over the data, it would be possible to
re-verify the data at will, by re-computing the hash.
Ideally, the association of the hash with the file should survive the
file being renamed, moved from one location or another, or even from one
file system type to another.
Right now, I'm primarily concerned about accidental file modifications
caused by cascaded hardware/firmware/software errors, as opposed to
attempts to spoof the system, so the length of the hash isn't
particularly important -- SHA-1 would be good enough.
About the best data rates we can get over FireWire 800 presently is 31
megabytes/second, but hopefully the hash function can keep up easily.
Does anyone have such a utility? We need one for both the Mac (Leopard
10.5.4) using HFS+ and the PC (XP SP3 and Vista SP1) using NTFS.
Support for FAT, and for Linux would be good for extra credit!
Regards,
Bob
Robert R. Jueneman
Chief Scientist
SPYRUS, Inc.
www.spyrus.com
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Sep 2 13:10:07 2008
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On 2 Sep 2008, at 19:49, Robert Jueneman wrote:
> About the best data rates we can get over FireWire 800 presently is 31
> megabytes/second, but hopefully the hash function can keep up easily.
Any hash function can keep up with that speed, even the dog-slow MD6
or Whirlpool can. You can easily use SHA-1 and even SHA-2. SHA-256 is
faster on 32-bit processors, but SHA-512 is faster on 64-bit
processors, although MD5 beats them all by speed.
> Does anyone have such a utility? We need one for both the Mac
> (Leopard
> 10.5.4) using HFS+ and the PC (XP SP3 and Vista SP1) using NTFS.
> Support for FAT, and for Linux would be good for extra credit!
http://md5deep.sourceforge.net/
There you go. That can do it all. You probably don't even need more
than a half of MD5 [in rounds] for your purposes.
Best regards,
Sean O'Neil
http://www.enrupt.com/ - Raising the bar.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Sep 2 13:37:31 2008
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On Sep 2, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Robert Jueneman wrote:
>
> Does anyone have such a utility? We need one for both the Mac
> (Leopard
> 10.5.4) using HFS+ and the PC (XP SP3 and Vista SP1) using NTFS.
> Support for FAT, and for Linux would be good for extra credit!
>
I have a linux port of the BSD mtree(8) command (which verifies hashes)
that I carry around within RPM sources that should do mostly what you
want.
Dunno if rpmmtree (developed mostly from Mac OS X sources)
does resource forks on Mac OS X or not.
(aside) And I can pretty easily wire up any additional hash function
within rpm
packages if useful for comparison timing and/or random "real world"
testing.
73 de Jeff
From hash-forum@nist.gov Wed Sep 3 12:49:45 2008
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From: Larry Bassham
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Everyone should be using the genKAT.c file provided to generate their
KAT and MonteCarlo values. This file and additional information can
be found at:
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/
test_vectors.html
Additionally, you shouldn't need to alter the genKAT.c file other
than changing the include file to match your implementations header
file name. If you have multiple header files adding those is also
acceptable. You shouldn't need to make any other changes to
genKAT.c. Do not, for example, append your source code or include
your source code into the genKAT.c file in any way.
If you wish to show additional features such as different internal
word_size choices, sample values for other hash lengths, etc., please
provide these as an Additional_Implementation.
These requirements are necessary to help facilitate the vetting process.
Larry B.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Fri Oct 10 03:28:10 2008
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From: Carmi Gressel
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Subject: Willl there be a week's grace for the final submission?
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Dear Shu-jen:
As the examination of the August 31 submissions took
longer than the 25 of Sept date, will there be a 2 week's grace
for the final submission?
NIST writes that it will welcome meeting with submitters in Washington.
We would appreciate meeting before the examiners try to read our
documentation in depth.
We know from experience with 7 previous technology transfers
to silicon fabs that a 1.5 hour lecture of the concept and architecture,
suddenly makes documentation friendly, readable and alive.
Sincerely,
Carmi
Carmi Gressel
FortressGB Ltd.
Omer Industrial Park 8B
Omer 84965, ISRAEL
Mb +972-54-7776 059 Hm+972-8-9920 518
Fx +972-8-6466 729 Skype - Carmi.Gressel
FGB - Tel IL +972-9-6909 727 UK +44-20-7874 595
_____
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 24/4/2006
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C92AC3.F5CD94D0
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charset="us-ascii"
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Dear =
Shu-jen:
As the examination of the August 31
submissions took
longer than the 25 of Sept date, will there be a 2 week's grace
for the final submission?
NIST writes that it will welcome =
meeting with
submitters in Washington.
We would appreciate meeting before the examiners try to read our
documentation in depth.
We know from experience with 7 =
previous technology
transfers
to silicon fabs that a 1.5 hour lecture of the concept and architecture, =
suddenly makes documentation friendly, readable and =
alive.
Sincerely,<=
/p>
Carmi
Carmi =
Gressel
FortressGB Ltd.
Omer
Industrial Park =
8B
Omer =
84965,
ISRAEL
Mb =
+972-54-7776
059 Hm+972-8-9920 518
Fx
+972-8-6466 729 Skype - =
Carmi.Gressel
FGB - Tel IL
+972-9-6909 727 UK
+44-20-7874 595
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: =
24/4/2006
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At 01:22 PM 10/10/2008, you wrote:
>Shu-jen Chang wrote:
>>Dear Mr. Friedman,
>>
>>Are you referring to the following text? If not, would you please
>>identify the source of the writing that Mr. Gressel was referring
>>to, as I'm really confused now. When you said RFP, did you mean our
>>Federal Register Notice? I have drafted one FRN to publish our
>>draft requirements and evaluation criteria of the new hash
>>algorithm, and another FRN to call for new hash algorithms, and I
>>don't recall any mentioning of meeting with submitters prior to
>>their submission reviews. Therefore, I'm perplexed. I am not aware
>>of any RFP that was done on behalf of the hash competition, but
>>that does not necessarily mean that it hasn't been done. In any
>>case, I would appreciate it very much if you can enlighten me on this.
>>
>> *5. Initial Planning for the First SHA-3 Candidate Conference*
>> An open public conference will be held shortly after the end of
>> the submission period, at which the submitter of each complete and
>> proper submission package will be invited to publicly discuss and
>> explain their candidate algorithm. The documentation for these
>> candidate algorithms will be made available at the Conference.
>> Details of the conference will be posted at <
>> http://www.nist.gov/hash-competition>.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Shu-jen
>
>Yes that is what I was referring to. Sorry for the terminology
>confusion I was using RFP informally (should of remembered federal
>employees are overly formal). I think the original question was
>asking about a post submission conference not a pre-submission one.
Thanks very much for the reply. For the competition, we have to be
very precise and formal. :-)
Again, we can't meet with the submitters before the reviews; we will
meet the first round candidates at the first SHA-3 Conference.
Thanks,
Shu-jen
From hash-forum@nist.gov Fri Oct 10 09:05:20 2008
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Subject: Re: Willl there be a week's grace for the final submission?
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Shu-jen Chang wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Gressel,
>
> I don't think you intended to send this email to hash-forum; we at
> NIST treat every hash submission with extreme care and we do not
> discuss anything about the submissions outside our review team.
> However, since you made your submission public, I'd like to point out
> that we did everything that we had promised to do on time. Your
> submission was received on 8/29/2008, and you were notified of the
> review status on 9/29/2008, which is before the 9/30/2008 deadline
> that we had promised.
>
> In fairness to every contender, the final submission deadline is
> 10/31/2008, and no grace period will be granted.
>
> About meeting with submitters to discuss their submissions, we are a
> bit confused. Would you enlighten us as where you saw that writing? If
> we grant one contender the chance to discuss his/her submission before
> the review, we will have to grant everyone the same opportunity.
> Considering the potential number of submissions and the origin of the
> submissions, it's probably unrealistic to accommodate this.
It was mentioned in the initial RFP.
>
> Regards,
> Shu-jen
>
>
> At 04:38 AM 10/10/2008, you wrote:
>
>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
>> ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C92AC3.F5CD94D0
>> Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>> Dear Shu-jen:
>>
>>
>>
>> As the examination of the August 31 submissions took
>> longer than the 25 of Sept date, will there be a 2 week's grace
>> for the final submission?
>>
>>
>>
>> NIST writes that it will welcome meeting with submitters in Washington.
>> We would appreciate meeting before the examiners try to read our
>> documentation in depth.
>>
>>
>>
>> We know from experience with 7 previous technology transfers
>> to silicon fabs that a 1.5 hour lecture of the concept and architecture,
>> suddenly makes documentation friendly, readable and alive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>
>> Carmi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Carmi Gressel
>>
>> FortressGB Ltd.
>> Omer Industrial Park 8B
>>
>> Omer 84965, ISRAEL
>>
>> Mb +972-54-7776 059 Hm+972-8-9920 518
>>
>> Fx +972-8-6466 729 Skype - Carmi.Gressel
>>
>> FGB - Tel IL +972-9-6909 727 UK +44-20-7874 595
>
>
>
>
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Fri Oct 10 08:50:39 2008
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Dear Mr. Gressel,
I don't think you intended to send this email to hash-forum; we at
NIST treat every hash submission with extreme care and we do not
discuss anything about the submissions outside our review team.
However, since you made your submission public, I'd like to point out
that we did everything that we had promised to do on time. Your
submission was received on 8/29/2008, and you were notified of the
review status on 9/29/2008, which is before the 9/30/2008 deadline
that we had promised.
In fairness to every contender, the final submission deadline is
10/31/2008, and no grace period will be granted.
About meeting with submitters to discuss their submissions, we are a
bit confused. Would you enlighten us as where you saw that writing?
If we grant one contender the chance to discuss his/her submission
before the review, we will have to grant everyone the same
opportunity. Considering the potential number of submissions and the
origin of the submissions, it's probably unrealistic to accommodate this.
Regards,
Shu-jen
At 04:38 AM 10/10/2008, you wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C92AC3.F5CD94D0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Dear Shu-jen:
>
>
>
>As the examination of the August 31 submissions took
>longer than the 25 of Sept date, will there be a 2 week's grace
>for the final submission?
>
>
>
>NIST writes that it will welcome meeting with submitters in Washington.
>We would appreciate meeting before the examiners try to read our
>documentation in depth.
>
>
>
>We know from experience with 7 previous technology transfers
>to silicon fabs that a 1.5 hour lecture of the concept and architecture,
>suddenly makes documentation friendly, readable and alive.
>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>
>Carmi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Carmi Gressel
>
> FortressGB Ltd.
> Omer Industrial Park 8B
>
> Omer 84965, ISRAEL
>
>Mb +972-54-7776 059 Hm+972-8-9920 518
>
> Fx +972-8-6466 729 Skype - Carmi.Gressel
>
> FGB - Tel IL +972-9-6909 727 UK +44-20-7874 595
From MAILER-DAEMON Wed Oct 22 07:53:00 2008
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This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not
a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software.
If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created
with the data reset to initial values.
From carmi@fortressgb.com Sat Oct 18 05:25:28 2008
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:43:55 -0400
From: Carmi Gressel
Reply-To: hash-forum@nist.gov
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: An apology to Shu-jen Chang for an untimely posting.
Status: RO
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------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C93126.EB6E1C30
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Dear Shu-jen:
My abject apologies for (mistakenly) posting a misplaced uninformed
letter on the forum.
Under the circumstances, the examiners did a very recommendable job,
apparently
pouring over thousands of pages of difficult to understand support data.
They finished their work on time, (for some unexplained reason I
hoped to receive the list of deficiencies on an earlier date.)
We look forward, at some future date, to be able to explain, face to
face, to the NIST examiners, our massively diffusive, multipermutation
(Schnorr/Vaudenay's guideline) design, based on simple tenets,
supported by massive innovative tests, (past, present and future).
We apologize in advance for our non-conventional submission.
Sincerely,
Carmi
Carmi Gressel
FortressGB Ltd.
Omer Industrial Park 8B
Omer 84965, ISRAEL
Mb +972-54-7776 059 Hm+972-8-9920 518
Fx +972-8-6466 729 Skype - Carmi.Gressel
FGB - Tel IL +972-9-6909 727 UK +44-20-7874 595
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C93126.EB6E1C30
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear =
Shu-jen:
My abject =
apologies
for (mistakenly) posting a misplaced uninformed
letter on the forum.
Under the
circumstances, the examiners did a very recommendable job, =
apparently
pouring over thousands of pages of difficult to understand support data. =
They finished =
their
work on time, (for some unexplained reason I
hoped to receive the list of deficiencies on an earlier date.) =
We look =
forward, at
some future date, to be able to explain, face to
face, to the NIST examiners, our massively diffusive, multipermutation =
(Schnorr/Vaudenay's guideline) design, based on simple tenets,
supported by massive innovative tests, (past, present and =
future).
We apologize =
in advance
for our non-conventional submission.
Sincerely,
Carmi
Carmi =
Gressel
FortressGB Ltd.
Omer
Industrial Park =
8B
Omer =
84965,
ISRAEL
Mb =
+972-54-7776
059 Hm+972-8-9920 518
Fx
+972-8-6466 729 Skype - =
Carmi.Gressel
FGB - Tel IL
+972-9-6909 727 UK
+44-20-7874 595
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C93126.EB6E1C30--
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Oct 21 09:41:50 2008
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Hi All,
I realize this is a silly question, but since it could interfere with
automated testing I'll ask anyway:
In some places in the submission specifications the directory names
have spaces in them, but in other places the spaces are either omitted
or replaced with underscores. For example, compare
"Reference_Implementation" in
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/optical_media.html
with "Reference Implementation" at the end of 2.C.1 in
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/ref_and_optim.html
Now, I realize that the difference doesn't matter to a human, but if
it matters, please let me know which naming convention to use.
Thanks,
--jason
Jason Worth Martin
Asst. Professor of Mathematics
http://www.math.jmu.edu/~martin
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Oct 21 11:05:31 2008
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Subject: Re: Spaces versus underscores in directory names?
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I don't really care for the Ref and Opt Implementations if you uses
spaces or underscores. Underscores probably make things more
portable and have less problems. The important one is to make sure
there is a root level directory with the name "KAT_MCT".
Larry B.
On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Jason Martin wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I realize this is a silly question, but since it could interfere with
> automated testing I'll ask anyway:
>
> In some places in the submission specifications the directory names
> have spaces in them, but in other places the spaces are either omitted
> or replaced with underscores. For example, compare
> "Reference_Implementation" in
>
> http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/
> optical_media.html
>
> with "Reference Implementation" at the end of 2.C.1 in
>
> http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/
> ref_and_optim.html
>
> Now, I realize that the difference doesn't matter to a human, but if
> it matters, please let me know which naming convention to use.
>
> Thanks,
> --jason
>
> Jason Worth Martin
> Asst. Professor of Mathematics
> http://www.math.jmu.edu/~martin
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Tue Oct 21 21:08:05 2008
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I feel that people think question in his way and express his thinking,
he just can do with what he think. but the reader or listener donot
always think in his way, and he real had thought all thing? So it
need sufficient exchange. The "face to face" is one way.
It seems that NIST will meet some one whose submission pass primary
election. If NIST meet them, they are luck to fullly explain their
thinking.
2008/10/22, Larry Bassham :
>
>
> I don't really care for the Ref and Opt Implementations if you uses spaces
> or underscores. Underscores probably make things more portable and have
> less problems. The important one is to make sure there is a root level
> directory with the name "KAT_MCT".
>
> Larry B.
>
>
> On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Jason Martin wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I realize this is a silly question, but since it could interfere with
> > automated testing I'll ask anyway:
> >
> > In some places in the submission specifications the directory names
> > have spaces in them, but in other places the spaces are either omitted
> > or replaced with underscores. For example, compare
> > "Reference_Implementation" in
> >
> >
> http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/optical_media.html
> >
> > with "Reference Implementation" at the end of 2.C.1 in
> >
> >
> http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Submission_Reqs/ref_and_optim.html
> >
> > Now, I realize that the difference doesn't matter to a human, but if
> > it matters, please let me know which naming convention to use.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --jason
> >
> > Jason Worth Martin
> > Asst. Professor of Mathematics
> > http://www.math.jmu.edu/~martin
> >
> >
>
>
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Wed Oct 22 13:06:03 2008
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Subject: First Candidate Conference
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Are there details available yet on the 1st Candidate Conference? Apparently it's to be right after FSE, but I haven't seen any official announcement -- I can't find anything on the web site, but maybe I'm missing it. I don't really want to make travel reservations until I know for sure.
Thanks,
Doug Whiting
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information which is protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution by any means is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or at (408) 399-3500 and destroy all copies of the original message.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Wed Oct 22 14:14:48 2008
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There was some hang-up on NIST's contract support that we are waiting
for a contract to be awarded (soon) before we can work on the SHA-3
Conference logistics. We still plan to host the SHA-3 Conference
from 2/25/2009 to 2/27/2009 (if necessary, to noon on 2/28/2009) in
KU Leuven, Belgium. As frustrated as we have been about the
contracting progress, we did not want to make any official
announcement before this issue is resolved.
Shu-jen
At 04:02 PM 10/22/2008, Doug Whiting wrote:
>Are there details available yet on the 1st Candidate Conference?
>Apparently it's to be right after FSE, but I haven't seen any
>official announcement -- I can't find anything on the web site, but
>maybe I'm missing it. I don't really want to make travel
>reservations until I know for sure.
>
>Thanks,
>Doug Whiting
>
>This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)
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>(408) 399-3500 and destroy all copies of the original message.
From hash-forum@nist.gov Wed Oct 22 08:42:55 2008
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I think I've had a mix of both. Doesn't matter to me.
Larry B.
On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:10 AM, Jason Martin wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Another pedantic question. For the optical media, do the text files
> need to have DOS End-of-Line indicators or Unix End-of-Line indicates?
> Again, I am assuming that humans can run the files through the
> necessary conversions on an as-needed basis, but I don't want my
> submission to break because the test scripts are assuming one format
> and I'm using another.
>
> Also, the optical media is supposed to be ISO 9660, but there are
> different flavors of ISO 9660. I'm assuming that ISO 9660 with Joliet
> is okay since it's readable by every OS I know of... if it isn't
> please let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> jason
>
> Jason Worth Martin
> Asst. Professor of Mathematics
> http://www.math.jmu.edu/~martin
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Wed Oct 22 08:14:12 2008
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Hi All,
Another pedantic question. For the optical media, do the text files
need to have DOS End-of-Line indicators or Unix End-of-Line indicates?
Again, I am assuming that humans can run the files through the
necessary conversions on an as-needed basis, but I don't want my
submission to break because the test scripts are assuming one format
and I'm using another.
Also, the optical media is supposed to be ISO 9660, but there are
different flavors of ISO 9660. I'm assuming that ISO 9660 with Joliet
is okay since it's readable by every OS I know of... if it isn't
please let me know.
Thanks,
jason
Jason Worth Martin
Asst. Professor of Mathematics
http://www.math.jmu.edu/~martin
From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Oct 23 08:00:28 2008
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From: "Danilo Gligoroski"
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Subject: NIST methodology for measuring the clock cycles of optimized implementations
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Hi,
I want to ask NIST about their methodology for measuring the clock cycles of
optimized implementations?
METHODOLOGY I
(we are measuring the speed of our hash functions by this methodology that
is present in Dr. Brian Gladman implementation of SHA-2):
"Experiment":
1. Measure the duration c01 of executing Hash once.
2. Measure the duration c02 of executing Hash two times.
Total experiment:
1. Repeat the "Experiment" N times
2. c1 = Minimum( of all c01)
3. c2 = Minimum( of all c02)
Estimated number of cycles for execution of Hash is: c2 - c1
METHODOLOGY II
Dan Bernstein has different methodology (in his software eBASH for measuring
speed of hash functions):
"Experiment":
Measure the duration c01 of executing Hash once.
Total experiment
1. Repeat "Experiment" N times
2. c1 = Median (of all c01)
Estimated number of cycles for execution of Hash is: c1
METHODOLOGY III
Some source codes posted publicly on Internet, for measuring CPU cycles for
different functions have the following methodology:
"Experiment":
Measure the duration c01 of executing Hash once
Total experiment:
1. Repeat "Experiment" N times
2. c1 = Minimum (of all c01)
Estimated number of cycles for execution of Hash is: c1
I think that it would be useful to know what will be the NIST methodology?
Regards
Danilo Gligoroski
From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Oct 23 08:40:41 2008
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Subject: Re: NIST methodology for measuring the clock cycles of optimized implementations
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I will probably be looking at something like:
foreach message length
foreach i in 1..100
obtain random message, M_i
measure duration of hash(M_i)
determine both min and median of durations
And of course do that for each of the required hash lengths (224,
256, 384, 512)
Larry B.
On Oct 23, 2008, at 10:55 AM, Danilo Gligoroski wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I want to ask NIST about their methodology for measuring the clock
> cycles of
> optimized implementations?
>
>
> METHODOLOGY I
> (we are measuring the speed of our hash functions by this
> methodology that
> is present in Dr. Brian Gladman implementation of SHA-2):
> "Experiment":
> 1. Measure the duration c01 of executing Hash once.
> 2. Measure the duration c02 of executing Hash two times.
>
> Total experiment:
> 1. Repeat the "Experiment" N times
> 2. c1 = Minimum( of all c01)
> 3. c2 = Minimum( of all c02)
>
> Estimated number of cycles for execution of Hash is: c2 - c1
>
>
> METHODOLOGY II
> Dan Bernstein has different methodology (in his software eBASH for
> measuring
> speed of hash functions):
> "Experiment":
> Measure the duration c01 of executing Hash once.
>
> Total experiment
> 1. Repeat "Experiment" N times
> 2. c1 = Median (of all c01)
>
> Estimated number of cycles for execution of Hash is: c1
>
>
> METHODOLOGY III
> Some source codes posted publicly on Internet, for measuring CPU
> cycles for
> different functions have the following methodology:
> "Experiment":
> Measure the duration c01 of executing Hash once
>
> Total experiment:
> 1. Repeat "Experiment" N times
> 2. c1 = Minimum (of all c01)
>
> Estimated number of cycles for execution of Hash is: c1
>
>
> I think that it would be useful to know what will be the NIST
> methodology?
>
> Regards
> Danilo Gligoroski
>
>
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Oct 30 14:23:29 2008
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At 4:38 PM -0400 10/30/08, Jean-Philippe Aumasson wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This is to announce the creation of a "SHA-3 lounge", at
>http://131002.net/sha3lounge/
I note that some attacks are (already) listed but there are no links to papers on the attacks. Such links could be as valuable as the links to the algorithms themselves.
--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium
From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Oct 30 15:19:52 2008
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Hi,
This is to announce the creation of a "SHA-3 lounge", at
http://131002.net/sha3lounge/
Best,
JP
From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Oct 30 20:38:26 2008
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From: "D. J. Bernstein"
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Subject: Generalized birthday attacks on PHASH
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http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ark/20081117/slide01.html and the accompanying
http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ark/20081117/phash.pdf (to be presented at Milcom
2008 in a few weeks) describe a hash function PHASH, apparently a SHA-3
submission.
If I'm reading the documents correctly then the proposed 256-bit hash
xors together 128 256-bit encryptions of separate blocks (and does a
tree for longer messages), allowing
* collisions to be found in time roughly 2^(256/9) by Wagner's
generalized birthday attack on a machine of size 2^(256/9), or time
roughly 2^(256/19) by my parallel generalized birthday attack on a
machine of size 2^(256/9.5),
* preimages to be found in time roughly 2^(256/17) on a machine of
size 2^(256/8.5),
etc. Similar comments, with doubled exponents, apply to the proposed
512-bit hash.
We're still before the SHA-3 submission deadline. Perhaps the authors
would like to revise their submission to specify a much larger block
size and an appropriate output filter. Of course, it's also possible
that I misread the paper and am stating an attack on something that
isn't actually what the paper describes, and it's also possible that the
authors didn't actually submit what the paper describes; if I'm raising
a false alarm, my apologies!
---D. J. Bernstein
Research Professor, Computer Science, University of Illinois at Chicago
From hash-forum@nist.gov Thu Oct 30 23:02:43 2008
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@Simon:
I've been informed of the existence of a similar project organized by
ECRYPT II. We may merge the two projects.
@Paul:
The attacks cited are reported in the MD6 document, and have been
discovered by non-coauthors. That's why I've put them here.
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>
> At 4:38 PM -0400 10/30/08, Jean-Philippe Aumasson wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>This is to announce the creation of a "SHA-3 lounge", at
>>http://131002.net/sha3lounge/
>
> I note that some attacks are (already) listed but there are no links to papers on the attacks. Such links could be as valuable as the links to the algorithms themselves.
>
> --Paul Hoffman, Director
> --VPN Consortium
>
>
From hash-forum@nist.gov Fri Oct 31 06:03:15 2008
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Subject: Re: Generalized birthday attacks on PHASH
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On Thursday 30 October 2008 11:24 pm, D. J. Bernstein wrote:
> http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ark/20081117/slide01.html and the accompanying
> http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ark/20081117/phash.pdf (to be presented at Milcom
> 2008 in a few weeks) describe a hash function PHASH, apparently a SHA-3
> submission.
Dr. Bernstein:
Thank you for your comments on PHASH. PHASH is a design concept for
parallelizable hash functions, it is not a hash function submitted to the
SHA-3 competition.
--
-Alan Kaminsky
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Science
B. Thomas Golisano College of Computing and Information Sciences
Rochester Institute of Technology
From hash-forum@nist.gov Fri Oct 31 10:54:47 2008
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Hi Jean-Philippe --
The SHA-3 hash lounge is a good idea.
I have a minor issue which perhaps you can figure out
a good way to handle.
I do worry that merely listing "attacks" may imply to some
that a scheme is somehow broken, whereas in truth it is
"more validated". Similarly, listing "none yet" under the
attacks may imply to some that the scheme has withstood all
attackers, whereas in fact in may just not have been looked
at yet.
I'm not sure how one could best address this. Maybe listing
"attacks and security studies" rather than just "attacks"? Maybe
(e.g. for MD6) saying how many rounds MD6 has in addition to how
many can be distinguished from random, e.g. ("(MD6 has 96/104/136/168
rounds for output sizes 224/256/384/512 bits.)")
Thanks!
Cheers,
Ron
On 10/31/2008 1:45 AM, Jean-Philippe Aumasson wrote:
> @Simon:
>
> I've been informed of the existence of a similar project organized by
> ECRYPT II. We may merge the two projects.
>
> @Paul:
>
> The attacks cited are reported in the MD6 document, and have been
> discovered by non-coauthors. That's why I've put them here.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>> At 4:38 PM -0400 10/30/08, Jean-Philippe Aumasson wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> This is to announce the creation of a "SHA-3 lounge", at
>>> http://131002.net/sha3lounge/
>> I note that some attacks are (already) listed but there are no links to papers on the attacks. Such links could be as valuable as the links to the algorithms themselves.
>>
>> --Paul Hoffman, Director
>> --VPN Consortium
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Ronald L. Rivest
Room 32-G692, Stata Center, MIT, Cambridge MA 02139
Tel 617-253-5880, Email
From hash-forum@nist.gov Fri Oct 31 11:20:13 2008
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Hi Ronald,
No problem with that, agree that "Attacks" sounds too negative, so
I've changed it to "Cryptanalysis", which is more neutral. Hope this
will be okay to you.
Best,
JP
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:47 PM, Ronald L. Rivest